TERRY GROSS, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. One of the successful British invasion bands of the '60s was the duo Peter and Gordon. Peter is my guest, Peter Asher, who later became a famous record producer. The first record Peter and Gordon released became a No. 1 hit in England and the U.S. That song, "A World Without Love," was written by Paul McCartney for the Beatles. But John Lennon didn't like it, so Paul put it away until Peter asked to record it. Paul had been living in the Asher family home where Peter, his sisters and his parents lived. We'll hear why a little later. It's a great story. So here's "A World Without Love" from 1964.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "A WORLD WITHOUT LOVE")
PETER AND GORDON: (Singing) Please, lock me away. And don't allow the day here inside where I hide with my loneliness. I don't care what they say. I won't stay in a world without love. Birds sing out of tune and rain clouds hide the room. I'm OK. Here I'll stay with my loneliness. I don't care what they say. I won't stay in a world without love. So I wait, and in a while, I will see my true love smile. She may come, I know not when. When she does, I'll know. So, baby, until then, lock me away.
GROSS: Peter and Gordon went on to have other hits including "Nobody I Know," "I Don't Want To See You Again," and "I Go To Pieces." After the duo split up, in 1968, Peter became the first A&R man at the Beatles' new Apple record label. The first person he signed was James Taylor, who had never recorded before. Peter didn't stay long at Apple. He moved to LA, produced and managed Taylor and helped turn him into a star.
He introduced Taylor to Carole King and launched King's performing career. He produced and managed Linda Ronstadt. Other artists he produced over the years include Randy Newman, Cher, Neil Diamond, Morrissey, Diana Ross, Elton John, Bonnie Raitt, Barbra Streisand, Robin Williams and Steve Martin. Wow, that's really a phenomenal list.
Peter Asher is part of other important moments in music history. Peter co-owned the gallery where John first met Yoko while her work was on exhibit there. Peter was unintentionally responsible for Mick Jagger meeting Marianne Faithfull, which began their romance. In addition to the many Grammys his artists won, he won three producing Grammys, and in 1977, was on the cover of Rolling Stone. A new documentary chronicles Peter Asher's life. It's called "Peter Asher: Everywhere Man." It's playing in select theaters around the country.
Peter Asher, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really like this documentary. You've had such an interesting life. So let's start with "World Without Love." Did Paul ever explain why John rejected it?
PETER ASHER: I think it was the lyrics. First of all, I think - I don't think it's quite true to say that Paul wrote it for the Beatles. I think he wrote it pre-Beatles, actually.
GROSS: Oh, that's right. You say he wrote it when he was 16.
ASHER: I recollect he was like 16 or something like that.
GROSS: Right.
ASHER: Which is extraordinary. And I think what John didn't like about it was the lyrics, that he thought that please lock me away was an absurd line to put in a song. And so he would actually say to Paul, OK, I will lock you away. The song's over.
GROSS: So it's copyrighted to Lennon-McCartney.
ASHER: Everything was.
GROSS: Yes, I know. And Paul told me, one of the times I interviewed him, that he regrets having the Beatles songs that Paul or John wrote independently credited to both of them, especially because even if Paul wrote a song himself, the credit started with Lennon, Lennon-McCartney.
ASHER: I'm not that sure I agree with Paul about that. I think it was something particularly charming and emphasized the closeness of their relationship that they agreed to credit everything to the two of them. And I think that was actually a very fair division of credit and saved them many arguments, because at the beginning, of course, they did actually write together. The songs they wrote in our house in London, as you point out, were songs that John came over, they sat down together at the piano or together with two guitars facing each other and wrote together. So I think that even if they just later did it in commemoration of those moments of togetherness and creativity, I think it was kind of a cool thing to do.
GROSS: So since you were talking about them writing songs together, let's hear a clip from the documentary. And this is a part where Paul is talking about living with your family and what that was like. And it leads into writing with John Lennon at your home. And in the second part of this clip, we'll hear you.
(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "PETER ASHER: EVERYWHERE MAN")
PAUL MCCARTNEY: It was such a family.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MCCARTNEY: Clare was a very nice younger sister, a lot of fun. And then there was Peter. He's a interesting, bright guy - I could talk to him about anything - and also very interested in music. Very musical. So there's a lot of connection there. They got a piano in my room. And there was a piano in the basement as well. So when John came to visit, we could write there on the piano at the same time.
ASHER: There was a little music room in the basement. And I do remember one particular occasion shortly after Paul had moved in. John came over, and he and Paul went down to this music room. They were down there for a couple of hours, and then Paul called up the stairs to me in my bedroom and asked if I wanted to come down and hear this song they had just finished writing. And they sat side by side at the piano and hammered out the first version anyone had ever heard of this brand-new song they had just finished called "I Want To Hold Your Hand."
GROSS: Peter Asher, your reaction was what when you heard the song?
ASHER: Amazement. I mean, I thought, am I losing my mind, or is this one of the best songs I've ever heard in my life? Or possibly both. But I was thrilled and amazed. And they looked at me for some kind of reaction. And I said, I think that's amazing. And perhaps the biggest giveaway is the fact that I immediately asked them if they could play it again.
And perhaps the second giveaway is the fact that they were delighted to play it again. I think they knew that they'd written something special. Whether they had in mind the fact that it was going to break the whole - change the whole attitude of the whole world, starting with America, that everyone was going to become a Beatle fan when they heard "I Want To Hold Your Hand," that that was the magic track that set off the American Beatlemania epidemic, I don't know. But that's what it turned out to be.
GROSS: So Paul was living with your family because your sister, Jane Asher, was a famous actress by then.
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: And Paul was her boyfriend.
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: The Beatles had a home in London for when they were there, but Paul found it too chaotic. He must've moved in very early in the Beatles' career because if he and John hadn't yet written "I Want To Hold Your Hand," that had to be pretty early.
ASHER: That's a good point. Yes, that's correct. I'm very bad at dates, as I told you. But, yes, that certainly would be true.
GROSS: So watching Paul's fame, what did it teach you about what it means to be famous? Because you were on the verge of becoming famous yourself.
ASHER: It's a good question. I don't really know I learned anything about becoming famous. And certainly, nobody was famous in a way that compared to the Beatles in any sense. But certainly, when we got to America, there's no question the template for a famous British invasion member had been sort of set by the Beatles.
And then all the girls who chased you around the streets and stuff, which they did, were following what they'd seen in the Beatles movie and how they knew everyone reacted to the Beatles. The screaming reached fever pitch. And we were lucky to be sort of part of that whole madness. And it was a thrilling time.
GROSS: Did you always feel lucky that girls were chasing after the band and that they were screaming, probably so loud they couldn't actually hear the music that you were playing, and you might not have been able to hear?
GROSS: Gordon when you were singing with him on stage. So, like...
ASHER: Yes, that was very annoying. That was true. I mean, it was certainly one of the downsides of the technology of that era. Monitors hadn't been invented yet at all.
GROSS: Oh, you had no monitors?
ASHER: No monitors at all, let alone the fancy in-ears that we all have today, so we couldn't hear ourselves at all. I mean, Ringo, I remember, did an interview explaining that he knew where he was on the song by watching the backs of Paul and John. He could tell from their movements which bit of the song they were in. But you couldn't hear anything, between the screaming and the technological setbacks. It was guesswork.
GROSS: It must have been strange for you from, you know, going to a guy who was playing, you know, like, small clubs...
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: ...To suddenly having a No. 1 record, touring America, getting on "The Ed Sullivan Show." It's, like, an extreme jump.
ASHER: It was, indeed. I mean, I often say that - you know, there was a comparison between - at one point, you know, I remember when I was - before I'd even made the record, I was at university reading philosophy - at London University - and bicycling home from school in - 4 in the afternoon in the dark and the rain very often, if it was a British winter. And only less than a year later, I think, I was instead driving down Sunset Boulevard in the broad sunshine in a rented Mustang, being recognized by beautiful women. And at that point, I kind of went, this is a substantial improvement, you know?
(LAUGHTER)
ASHER: I think this is better. So I made the decision to quit university, of course, and take up this pop stuff full time.
GROSS: Did it change your self-image to have women chasing after you?
ASHER: No, but it's fun, that's for sure. I don't think it - I don't know it changed my self-image. Did I suddenly feel suave and grown-up and manly? I don't think so. I think my insecurities remained intact. But it was certainly amusing.
GROSS: (Laughter) So you loved American jazz, folk music, rock 'n' roll.
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: And suddenly, you go - I mean, you go to America and everybody's really, really absorbed in the British invasion. Americans were in love with British bands. Was that incomprehensible to you?
ASHER: It was a surprise. I mean, because that's the whole miracle of the British invasion. We loved all this music - you know, as you said, folk music and jazz. And I was a big jazz fan. And it just was extraordinary. And then we learned all this music - R&B and The Everly Brothers in our case and so on - and decided who we wished to emulate among the stars of American music. And then the miracle is that we somehow learned it all and tweaked it slightly and sold it all back to you. It was a remarkable achievement from a business point of view, I suppose.
GROSS: I want to mention another connection between your family and the Beatles, which is your mother was a professional oboe player. She performed with symphonies and taught oboe at the Royal Academy of Music, also taught private lessons, and one of her private students was George Martin, who later became the Beatles' producer. I don't think he was producing them yet. Am I right about that?
ASHER: That's right, yeah. I don't think so, no. I think that's correct. Yeah, it was an extraordinary coincidence. So by the time my mother was introduced to George Martin as her daughter's boyfriend's record producer, she was like, oh, it's George, you know?
GROSS: (Laughter).
ASHER: She had given him private lessons to - 'cause he was concerned about passing his exams at the Guildhall School of Music, and he had to - oboe was his second instrument, and he required some further training, evidently. But presumably it was successful.
GROSS: Let's talk about your very first career (laughter), which was as a child actor. And, as I think we mentioned earlier, you were in a film with Claudette Colbert, you had a part in the TV series "The Adventures Of Robin Hood," which I used to watch, and you were in a TV series with Boris Karloff - episodes, or an episode. So what was the experience for you, being, like, I think, 8 during part of this? And...
ASHER: I was 8 when it started. I did my first film, "The Planter's Wife," with Claudette Colbert and Jack Hawkins when I was 8, yes.
GROSS: Yes. So what was the experience like for you? Did you feel like, this is exciting, I'm getting to meet movie stars, or did you just...
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: Oh, OK.
ASHER: But I enjoyed acting, too. I mean, I was - I enjoyed the work. But it's all very standard. You read the script, learn your lines, and do what the director wants you to do and hope that it was good.
GROSS: What was it like seeing yourself onscreen? Did you go to a movie theater and see yourself?
ASHER: Yes. We used to go and see rushes quite often in the evening, you know, and see what you'd shot that very day, or the day before, perhaps, 'cause they had to develop the film, I suppose.
GROSS: Did it make you any more or less comfortable with yourself in terms of how you looked? Did it make you self-conscious?
ASHER: I don't think so, actually. I think maybe self-consciousness comes when you're 10 or comes with puberty. (Laughter) I don't know. I don't think I felt very self-conscious at that point, no.
GROSS: Did your mother feel comfortable with you as a performer, since she was a performer, too? She played oboe.
ASHER: Yes, she was surprisingly cool with it. I mean, all three of us got signed - Jane and Clare and I. And we all did bits...
GROSS: Those were your two sisters? Yeah.
ASHER: My two sisters and I. And we did bits of acting. The only thing we did together was Jane and I did one of those episodes of "Robin Hood" that you mentioned. We played in - there was one called "Children Of The Greenwood" when we played a brother and sister peasant couple, whereas in the other episodes I did, I played Prince Arthur - rather posher. But, no, we - yeah, we - so we were all signed and all worked and all enjoyed it, but Jane enjoyed it the best and also was the best at it.
GROSS: And had a career.
ASHER: And built a very fine acting career which persists to this day.
GROSS: I mean, part of the reason why you became an actor is that you and your two sisters had red hair. So you all had red hair.
ASHER: That's the reason we got signed. Yeah. Some agent spotted us and said, oh, they're - you know, they're very picturesque or something.
GROSS: But...
ASHER: And...
GROSS: Yeah.
ASHER: Yeah.
GROSS: But most of the stuff you were in was probably black and white (laughter).
ASHER: Yes. And we were never all three of us in something together. That's why, if you look at the casting directory of that era, it has to say in the black and white - alongside the black and white photographs, it says, all have red hair, in big letters because that was not evident from the photos in the guide 'cause they couldn't afford color printing at that point.
GROSS: Well, let's take a break here. My guest is Peter Asher. The new documentary about him is called "Everywhere Man." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF BRAD MEHLDAU'S "BLACKBIRD")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Asher. Americans first knew him as half of the '60s British invasion band Peter and Gordon. Their hits included "A World Without Love," "Nobody I Know" and "I Go To Pieces." Asher went on to become a Grammy-winning record producer. His two most enduring music relationships were with James Taylor and Linda Ronstadt.
So let's get back to you touring. So when you first got to America, what struck you as musically most different about the U.S. versus England?
ASHER: Everything was different. The radio stations were completely different. You know, we only had the BBC. You had all these brilliant little stations where the DJ actually played the records himself, which, in the BBC, never happened. Somebody else, you know, put the needle in the groove and so on, and it was very organized.
And then, as a jazz fan, the craziest thing was, you know, in England, when - if a jazz - legendary jazz player came to England, they'd be playing concert halls and being treated with extreme respect. And in New York, you know, there are just all these jazz clubs. And all my heroes were playing these places that were, like, scummy, kind of smoke-ridden little jazz clubs, which was very exciting for us. But there was a huge difference in how they treated the music. I already had copies of DownBeat with all the jazz clubs I wanted to go to circled. I knew who was playing where and when and so on. And I remember going to see people like Roland Kirk and - whereas in England, we'd see Thelonious Monk in Royal Festival Hall. So their attitude to music was completely different, at least to jazz.
GROSS: In the '60s, while you were performing and recording with Gordon, your singing partner, you also became the co-owner of a bookstore and an art gallery that were...
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: ...Part of London's underground culture of the time. Describe what was new about the clothes, the music and the sense of liberation after growing up during the period England was rebuilding and suffering food shortages after World War II.
ASHER: Absolutely. Well, rationing - people are amazed to realize that rationing didn't end till 1956, the last item - whatever was the last thing that was still rationed.
GROSS: And what year were you born?
ASHER: '44. So, you know, yes, it was a big change. And I think that is part of it 'cause the - Britain, as we grew up, was - everything was rationed. Everything was gray and standardized, and there were shortages of everything. And we very much admired, you know, the spirit of the Blitz and all that stuff, and tighten your belt and, you know, fight them in the beaches and, well, the general spirit of the thing. And obviously, we won the war in theory, but it certainly didn't feel like it. And we could see that America was the country that was going to change the world from then on. The British Empire's days already were - it was kind of numbered, it turned out.
So the Churchillian attitude was sort of fading away. I think we decided, you know, that was all very well. We admired what our parents have accomplished. Thank God we won the war, and all that stuff, but now it's time to have some fun. So we're going to wear silly clothes and bright colors and smoked dope and have a good time. And we did.
GROSS: So how did you change during that period?
ASHER: I wore silly clothes and dressed up and...
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: And smoked dope.
ASHER: And smoked dope and had fun. It was that era in the '50s where you sort of tried to look like a grown-up, you know? And then by the time we got to the '60s, you wanted to avoid desperately looking like a grown-up. You wanted to look like somebody cool and young.
GROSS: So the gallery that you co-owned is where John and Yoko met...
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: ...During a period when the gallery was exhibiting her work. Were you there when they met?
ASHER: I was there when John showed up, but I can't remember. I wasn't actually the person who introduced them or anything. But John came in his Mini Cooper with a chauffeur. And yeah. I mean, I - it was John Dunbar, who ran the art half of the Indica operation, and he'd seen Yoko or talked to Yoko or something. And that's - he suggested that Yoko would be a good person to be, you know, exhibited in our gallery, which she was indeed. And I certainly saw John there at one point, but I don't think I was the person who actually physically introduced them.
GROSS: So the gallery...
ASHER: Even though sometimes I get blamed for it in that context.
GROSS: But that gallery was the place that the whole controversy started about whether Yoko broke up the Beatles.
ASHER: Well, exactly. I mean, it was - it's funny because I tell the story as part of my stage show, which is a bit half stories, half music. When I tell that story, it gets such wildly different reactions at different days. 'Cause sometimes it's a - ah, you know, what a sweet love story. Other times, it's kind of - I don't know. And then finally - one time that only this happened - as soon as I told the story, somebody jumped up to their feet and said, it was you. You broke up the Beatles. I had to say, no, I didn't. You know? Only 'cause I didn't.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: Not your fault. You are absolved.
ASHER: Not my fault. Exactly. Exactly, so.
GROSS: So I think this is a good time to take another break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Asher, and the new documentary about him is called "Everywhere Man." We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I GO TO PIECES")
PETER AND GORDON: (Singing) When I see her coming down the stream, I get so shaky, and I feel so weak. I tell my eyes, look the other way. But they don't seem to hear a word I say. And I go to pieces, and I want to hide. Go to pieces, and I...
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Asher. Americans first knew him as half of the '60s British invasion band Peter and Gordon. Their hits included "A World Without Love," "Nobody I Know" and "I Go To Pieces." Asher went on to become a Grammy-winning record producer. His two most enduring music relationships were with James Taylor and Linda Ronstadt.
So in terms of your music life, you went through a transitional time in the late '60s. Gordon Waller, your singing partner, decided he wanted to go solo.
ASHER: Yeah.
GROSS: And you knew that you wanted to produce recordings.
ASHER: I did. I - the minute I went into the recording studio and figured out what producers did, I thought, this would be so cool. You know, I loved the idea of being able to influence the arrangement and mix and sound and identity - musical identity - of a song.
GROSS: Before you had produced any record, you became the first A&R man for the Beatles' new Apple record label.
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: A&R stands for artists and repertoire. Describe what your job was.
ASHER: Well, Apple took this very bold step of actually soliciting tapes. Because normally, there's - no unsolicited material was supposed to be sent in to most major record companies. But we actually took ads going, you know, send your tapes to Apple Records. And, God, did they ever.
GROSS: (Laughter).
ASHER: We got giant mailbags full of tapes. And the sad thing was, they mostly were not any good. And not just that. It'd be weird stuff, like somebody sends in a hundred pages of lyrics that they know John Lennon is anxiously awaiting to write music for and things like that. And you'd suddenly realize there's an awful lot of odd people out there who think they need to be signed to Apple Records. But eventually, of course, we did find a few good people, but usually not, sadly, through the unsolicited tapes. They usually came through connections or friends or coincidences, like me meeting James and things like that.
GROSS: Why did the label go through that route?
ASHER: Because it was the spirit of Apple, I think - the idea that, you know, we are the first label who's going to really pay attention to artists and take them seriously. 'Cause everyone had experience of trying to get a record company to listen to you and they refused, you know? And until you had a manager, until you went through proper channels, it was really hard to do that. So we were kind of going - we wanted to be the ones who - we got it. You know, if you're sitting in your bedroom writing songs, you don't have to keep them a secret anymore. Send them to us.
GROSS: Well, the first person you signed was James Taylor, and you did not...
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: ...Find him in the slush pile.
ASHER: Correct.
GROSS: How did you find him?
ASHER: Well, when Gordon and I played America, we were supplied backup bands kind of locally. There'd be some promoter in, say, the Midwest or something would find a band to back you up and usually would just find an out-of-work local group who would do it for cheap, and so the quality of those bands varied enormously. But one band that I actually liked that came to us in that manner was a band called the King Bees, and one of the King Bees was a guitar player called Danny Kortchmar. And Danny and I, when the King Bees were backing us up on the road, became great friends. We're - we remain great friends to this day. He's a brilliant guitar player and a remarkable man.
And then, subsequently, Danny was in a band with his childhood friend James Taylor. And that band was called The Flying Machine, and it suffered all the vicissitudes that living in New York could convey. And, you know, there were drug problems and money problems and food problems and all this other stuff going on. So finally, that band broke up. James decided to go to London, and when Danny found this out, he said to James, you should look up my friend Peter Asher. He's OK. And we toured together for, you know, a while back.
And so that's how I got a - my phone rang, and this guy on it said - you know, very sort of cultured, slightly Southern accent, that - explained that he was a friend of Kootch's. And, you know - and I said, great. You know, if you're in London, come over. I mean, come and visit. So he came to dinner the following evening. And he'd already made a demo tape the previous week, and he played me a couple of songs on the tape, and I was completely blown away. And then he picked up my guitar and - which was leaning in the corner of the room - and played me something live, and I couldn't believe it. I thought his guitar playing was exceptional, his singing was exceptional, and the songs were brilliant. I can wax on about each of them if needed 'cause they were all different. I mean, his guitar playing was slightly classical but with jazz kind of harmonies on it. He listened to a lot of Manhattan records, and his singing style owed more to Ray Charles and Sam Cooke.
And so I said, look, you know, this is amazing. I love your music. I've just got this new job, as it happens. I'm head of A&R for a record label. Would you like a record deal? And he kind of went, yes, please, I'd love one. And that was that. So he was the first artist signed to Apple Records. I took him into Apple offices the next day - or the following day, I'm not sure - and Paul and George were both there at the time. So they came in and sat and listened to James sing a couple of songs and kind of went, yes, we agree. I mean, I was going to sign him anyway, but obviously getting the bosses onside was very important.
GROSS: What was your vision for him? What did you encourage him to do?
ASHER: Just keep writing some great songs 'cause I loved his songs. And then we started talking about the kind of record we should make. And that's when I decided that on this particular album - on the Apple album - I orchestrated it quite a bit. I had a friend of mine called Richard Hewson, who was a jazz guitar player and a classical music composer, to write some arrangements for us 'cause I was most anxious that people take James seriously - that they not think he's just - yeah, oh, it's another long-haired folky because he definitely wasn't, and isn't. 'Cause that was the thing of that era. You know, if you sang and played the acoustic guitar, you were a folk singer, whether you sang folk songs or not.
But in this case - so we made - that's why we made the first album. And that album, as you probably know, was not tremendously successful. You know, it just laid the groundwork for the first album we made when we got to America.
GROSS: Yeah. You left with James Taylor for the U.S...
ASHER: Yeah.
GROSS: ...Which is where you recorded his second album.
ASHER: Correct.
GROSS: And you left Apple for good. You hadn't stayed at Apple very long when you...
ASHER: No. I would have got - if I hadn't left, by the way, I would have got fired 'cause Allen Klein came in.
GROSS: Why?
ASHER: Well, because Allen Klein was coming in and firing everybody. I could see the writing on the wall, so I wrote Allen a letter of resignation. But he was in charge of Apple overall at the time, you know? And I'm sure you've read about the fights between John and Paul about whether Allen Klein was evil or not, or whether he could be a good manager. And Paul lost the argument in this instance, and they hired Allen Klein to be the head of Apple. And it was clear that he was going to fire everybody, and he did fire most people. So if I hadn't quit, I certainly would have been fired pretty - in short order.
GROSS: Well, let's take a break here. My guest is Peter Asher. The new documentary about him is called "Everywhere Man." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF JAMES TAYLOR SONG, "MOON RIVER")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Asher. Americans first knew him as half of the '60s British invasion band Peter and Gordon. Their hits included "A World Without Love," "Nobody I Know" and "I Go to Pieces." Asher went on to become a Grammy-winning record producer. His two most enduring music relationships were with James Taylor and Linda Ronstadt.
So let's get back to talking about James Taylor. You recorded your second album with him in the U.S. He was going through, at various times - he had a heroin habit. And...
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: You probably don't want to dwell on this, but I would like to ask you if it interfered either with his music or with your relationship.
ASHER: It interfered with his music a lot. I mean, it - I think it takes up some of - quite a bit of your attention, you know, being a junkie, 'cause it's quite a complicated process. And you have to keep finding it and buying it and - you know. So, yes, it changed that. And our relationship - no. I mean, I knew very little about it. I had to sort of look up, you know, as it were, what drug addicts were, you know? We didn't know a whole lot about it. So I just thought, oh, he spends a lot of time in the bathroom, or whatever, and worried about him. But eventually, you know - eventually, we discussed it openly. And I was basically saying to him, what can I do to help? And so I helped him as - in whatever way I could. It - and of course, the actual process of becoming clean took him, you know, years. But eventually, of course, he did it very successfully.
GROSS: One of my favorite James Taylor recordings is "Fire And Rain" from his second album, "Sweet Baby James," which, of course, you produced. And it's a song about a friend who died by suicide. Did he tell you the story behind the song?
ASHER: A little bit. I mean, he's told it publicly. I mean, Suzanne was a - some - a friend who had killed herself, and I think people didn't want to tell him or something. So there was some delay in him actually getting the information. And of course, there's the thing about flying machines in pieces on the ground, and there's been much misinterpreted. And people think it relates to a plane crash, and it doesn't at all. The flying machine was the band, as I explained before, that he was in with Cooch that broke up. So that was the flying machine in pieces on the ground.
GROSS: So I want to play "Fire And Rain," which was recorded in 1970. And I want our listeners to know that it's Carole King on piano. And...
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: After we hear this, you can explain why and how you got her to play.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "FIRE AND RAIN")
JAMES TAYLOR: (Singing) Just yesterday morning, they let me know you were gone. Suzanne, the plans they made put an end to you. I walked out this morning, and I wrote down this song. I just can't remember who to send it to. I've seen fire, and I've seen rain. I've seen sunny days that I thought would never end. I've seen only times when I could not find a friend. But I always thought that I'd see you again.
GROSS: OK. So how did you get Carole King to play piano on that, and why?
ASHER: Well, actually, Danny Kortchmar is the - is a key figure yet again in this story because when I came out to LA, I wanted to put together a little band to play on the whole track. And I - 'cause I wanted to keep it much simpler than the preceding album had been and to make sure that every song was based entirely around the arrangement that was sort of self-contained in his guitar playing and his singing. And I found a drummer called Russ Kunkel, and Danny Kortchmar himself was going to play guitar, obviously. And then I was trying to choose the - a piano player.
And I - by this time, I had heard some of Carole King's demos. I already was a huge fan of hers. Goffin and King wrote so many of my favorite songs - of course, you know, "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow" being the first one when she was 18 that was No. 1 all over the place. And that went on to do, you know, "Natural Woman" and "I'm Into Something Good" and "Up On The Roof." And I loved Carole King's piano playing, specifically 'cause it was very much an accompanist's kind of piano playing - not flashy, not complicated, but just right. Sort of sing a song, write a piano.
So I got to meet Carole through Danny Kortchmar. I then asked Carole if she would consider playing on this James Taylor album that we were about to make. I said, I'd - would need you for about five days. I love your playing. I think you and James would sound great together. And she said, maybe.
And she didn't know who James was. So I invited over to my house, where James was staying at this point. And she sat down next to James at the piano bench. James played his guitar, and she started playing piano. I suggested they just sit and start playing, and it worked perfectly. I thought her piano playing was exactly, exactly what I had in mind. And James loved her, too. And of course, he was a Carole fan already. And so we sort of booked Carole, as it were, as a studio musician for the next five days. And that was when we recorded every track on "Sweet Baby James." And if you look, you'll see that Carole King is credited on piano on every one of them.
GROSS: And that's how Carole King and James Taylor became friends and collaborators.
ASHER: Yes. Exactly so.
GROSS: And he recorded her song "You've Got A Friend" before she did. So...
ASHER: Barely. Yeah. They were almost the same time.
GROSS: Did she have any problem to - I mean, she would get composer royalties, so it would work in her favor in that respect. But, I mean, it could have taken away from her own recording.
ASHER: Yes. Exactly. No, it was an act of great generosity. What actually happened was kind of interesting. When James was playing the Troubadour in Los Angeles after "Sweet Baby James" was a big hit, I persuaded Carole to actually play with James live, which she did. So when Carole agreed to play with James at the Troubadour, James had the idea that Carole might like to do a little set of her own to get her feet wet, as it were, in terms of actually being a performer in front of a live audience. So she agreed to do that. And it was on the opening night at the Troubadour at the sound check that, while Carole was sound-checking her own piano just to make sure it would all work and everything, she ran through a song she'd just finished writing the night before.
And James and I were just sitting in the audience at the Troubadour in the empty house. And we heard Carole sing this brand-new song she just finished called "You've Got A Friend." And James fell in love with the song completely. So eventually, we asked Carole if James could learn it, and finally asked very rather nervously, I think, whether she would consider letting us record it, even though knowing that she was going to record it, as well. And both versions "You've Got A Friend" got made.
And the miracle is, you know, rather than it hurting anybody, it was a huge success on both counts. You know, James' version of "You've Got A Friend" was a No. 1 single all over the place. And Carole's version of "You've Got A Friend" was a key track on the album that became "Tapestry" and went on to sell a gazillion billion copies.
GROSS: Yes, I think you were required to own a copy of that album.
ASHER: (Laughter) Exactly.
GROSS: Everybody I knew had a copy. So since you produced the James Taylor version, why don't we hear that? Do you want to say anything about the production?
ASHER: It's quite minimal. Carole didn't actually play on our version. It's basically James and Danny Kortchmar on a couple of acoustic guitars and Russ Kunkel playing congas, I think, largely. I think I may be playing cabasa on it, doing some little tiny backbeats on the chorus, but that's about it.
GROSS: OK, this is James Taylor, "You've Got A Friend," produced by my guest, Peter Asher.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "YOU'VE GOT A FRIEND")
TAYLOR: (Singing) When you're down and troubled and you need a helping hand and nothing, oh, nothing is going right, close your eyes and think of me, and soon I will be there to brighten up even your darkest night. You just call out my name and you know, wherever I am, I'll come running - oh, yeah, baby - to see you again. Winter, spring, summer or fall, all you got to do is call, and I'll be there - yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got a friend.
GROSS: So that was James Taylor, and that recording was produced by my guest Peter Asher. There's a new documentary about him called "Everywhere Man." We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE MOONLIGHT ORCHESTRA'S "BLUE BAYOU")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Asher. Americans first knew him as half of the '60s British invasion band Peter and Gordon. Their hits included "A World Without Love," "Nobody I Know" and "I Go To Pieces." Asher went on to become a Grammy award-winning record producer, and he worked extensively with James Taylor and Linda Ronstadt.
Let's talk about your recordings with - and your relationship with Linda Ronstadt. You were recommended by a friend to go hear her. Now, she was already pretty famous 'cause she had recorded and performed with the band Stone Poneys.
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: So people knew who she was. But the band had broken up, and she was kind of - where was she in her career at this point, when you heard her?
ASHER: I don't remember exactly. I suppose, you know, "Different Drum" was a hit, and "Long Long Time" was a hit, but she hadn't taken off in a huge way, I guess. And I hadn't heard of her. I mean, I'd heard the records, I think, on the radio, but I didn't know anything about her. And somebody recommended I go and see her, said, go and see this girl who's playing at The Bitter End in New York 'cause she's amazing. And she was amazing in every respect. She looked amazing. She sounded amazing. She was amazingly smart and bright and brilliant and well-read and fascinating as a person. So I was knocked out, and her voice just impressed the hell out of me.
GROSS: Now, I understand why you were excited about her. Why was she willing to sign with you?
ASHER: Well, she was thinking about changing managers. She was with a couple of people, and at that point, I think, she was with Herbie Cohen, who turned out to be slightly dishonest, apparently. When the band got arrested at an airport with forged air tickets, he had something to do with it or something. But anyway, for whatever reason, she was looking for another manager.
GROSS: I think one of the things that she felt was that her input wasn't taken seriously by previous producers, that she was, like, the chick singer.
ASHER: Right. I think that was true. And the same thing applies to the record producer and manager, you know, both of which I was in the case of James and eventually Linda.
GROSS: I think two of the greatest tracks on the first album that you did with her are "Heart Like A Wheel," a song by Anna McGarrigle, and "You're No Good." And I think she suggested "Heart Like A Wheel." She had wanted to record it, and...
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: ...I think everyone else who was working with her didn't.
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: And you suggested the song, "You're No Good." What made you think of that song for her?
ASHER: I think Kenny Edwards, our bass and was originally one of the Stone Poneys, I think he might have suggested it, as well. We all knew the song. I'd learned it from The Swinging Blue Jeans English hit, but he knew it from the - whoever did the R&B version. And then we cut it a couple of different cut times trying to get it right. And the final version owes a great deal to the genius of Andrew Gold, a fantastic guitar player and keyboard player and drummer and bass player - that he played a lot of the - most of the instruments on the final version of the record that we did. And we finally thought that we'd got it right. And then we - I remember playing that back, and kind of rarely is one actually super confident that a record's a hit, but in this case, we were listening to "You're No Good" and kind of went, if that's not a hit record, you know, I don't know what is, or, I'll eat my hat, or whatever the idiom is.
GROSS: Well, you didn't need to eat your hat (laughter).
ASHER: Exactly. Exactly.
GROSS: It did really well. So let's hear it. This is Linda Ronstadt, "You're No Good," produced by my guest, Peter Asher.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "YOU'RE NO GOOD")
LINDA RONSTADT: (Singing) Feeling better now that we're through. Feeling better 'cause I'm over you. I learned my lesson. It left a scar. Now I see how you really are. You're no good, you're no good, you're no good. Baby, you're no good. I'm gonna say it again. You're no good, you're no good, you're no good. Baby, you're no good. I broke a heart that's gentle and true. Well, I broke a heart over someone like you. I'll beg his forgiveness on bended knee. I wouldn't blame him if he said to me, you're no good, you're no good, you're no good. Baby, you're no good.
GROSS: So that was Linda Ronstadt, "You're No Good," produced by my guest, Peter Asher.
One of the things that you did was you decided, like, the musicians are so important on recordings, you started putting their names on album covers. And a lot of album covers did not mention who the musicians were.
ASHER: Yeah. A lot of...
GROSS: It was a common practice to name them on jazz albums 'cause those were instrumental albums.
ASHER: Yes.
GROSS: But most rock albums of the period were - you know, the front person was a vocalist. So talk about why you did it and the impact you think that had.
ASHER: Apparently it had a substantial impact, according to the musicians, and I'm very glad if it did. Because, yes, I mean, Motown Records, for example, you had no idea who anybody was. I never saw any Motown players listed on any album - Supremes, Four Tops, nothing. And so - and that seemed to be fairly consistent throughout the industry. And I remember looking at records as - you know, as a fan back in London, I would always wonder who was playing on it and couldn't find the information. You know, the guy who took the album cover photograph was more likely to get a credit than the people who played all this breathtaking music.
So it seemed to me entirely logical. You know, it was - I wasn't doing anything magical, and - I just thought they should be listed 'cause they played so well, so we put them on the back of the record. And apparently it did make a difference to those musicians because they would obviously get hired based on, I want something that sounds like that, you know? And that's a good thing. So I still do that to this day, but it's more common these days.
GROSS: I want to thank you so much for talking with us. The film is fascinating - the documentary about you called "Everywhere Man." And I wish you good health and continued performances and producing.
ASHER: Thank you very much indeed.
GROSS: The new documentary "Peter Asher: Everywhere Man" is in select theaters nationwide. Asher continues to tour as a one-man stage show, sharing stories and songs from his decadeslong career. This Halloween, he'll perform at a place he knows well that very rarely hosts public events - Abbey Road Studios.
Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, President Trump is pushing Congress to pass a law that would require showing a passport or birth certificate to register to vote and create strict ID requirements to vote. The rules of the midterms are being rewritten, from redistricting to campaign money. We talk with Ari Berman, who's covered voting rights for years at Mother Jones. I hope you'll join us.
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(SOUNDBITE OF BRAD MEHLDAU'S "BLACKBIRD")
GROSS: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Charlie Kaier. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
(SOUNDBITE OF BRAD MEHLDAU'S "BLACKBIRD") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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